174 replies to this topic

[eyoismos]

[eyoismos]

these are the facts !!!!

all "arguments" can only start with the above

prattling away like there is no tomorrow about the status of today is moronic if one refuses to see what happened yesterday

[Μπουμπουλίνα]

So in 1981.........

1- The Greeks joined the EU

2- Papandreou was elected into power


And since then, the public debt has been on the rise.......


So why are we still blaming the Greek people when there are more obvious (and economically significant) reasons for the public debt??????

[Ajax]

So in 1981.........

So why are we still blaming the Greek people when there are more obvious (and economically significant) reasons for the public debt??????

Because they too are guilty of not only committing fraud on the system but also not paying their share of taxes over years like we do here, due to lack of proper systems in place to do so "failure of proper policies by previous governments to address this to stop people of abusing the system". They stayed silent while they fed them self's on the countries expense...


Here is one of many frauds Greek people have been committing on the system.
http://www.reuters.c...E8FP4R320120425

No one in athens had the balls to address these sort of issues....Now they are all paying the price of mismanagement.

Edited by Ajax, 28 June 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Μπουμπουλίνα]

So in 1981.........

So why are we still blaming the Greek people when there are more obvious (and economically significant) reasons for the public debt??????

Because they too are guilty of not only committing fraud on the system but also not paying their share of taxes over years like we do here, either purposefully or lack of systems in place to do so "failure of proper policies by previous governments to address this to stop people of abusing the system". They stayed silent while they fed them self's on the countries expense...


Here is one of many frauds Greek people have been committing on the system.
http://www.reuters.c...E8FP4R320120425

No one in athens had the balls to address these sort of issues....Now they are all paying the price of mismanagement.

This ONLY started happening in 1981???????????

[Ajax]

Yes because things changed & someone didn't have the balls in athens to make the new changes needed in policies to meet the new era of being in the new euro zone. They started some decade later.....too late by then.

[Ajax]

i mean people were able to still rotting the system right up to 2012, no one stepped in to close the gaps......

Edited by Ajax, 28 June 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[Μπουμπουλίνα]

I seriously cannot fathom the idea that at one point........specifically in 1981.......a significant number of individual Greek people could have a cumulative effect to the degree of causing SUCH a SUDDEN rise in public debt..............

[Ajax]

Like i said, no one made the changes right away that were needed when Greece entered the euro zone & it seems to have overwhelmed Greece in the process.....It comes down to either careless or incompetent politicians...imo.

[Ajax]

That's why we see the spike as soon as Greece entered the euro zone.......

[Μπουμπουλίνα]

I seriously cannot fathom the idea that at one point........specifically in 1981.......a significant number of individual Greek people could have a cumulative effect to the degree of causing SUCH a SUDDEN rise in public debt..............

OK......so lets take this to the next level..........lets entertain this idea as FACT.......... lets say:

.........the Government and the EU actually had NO INFLUENCE on the economy and public debt.........nil....zilch...nada....

And the Greek people are solely to blame......


what EXACTLY did the Greeks do as individuals in 1981 that lead to such a rise in public debt.........?????????? and the next question.......is WHY???????????

[Μπουμπουλίνα]

Like i said, no one made the changes right away that were needed when Greece entered the euro zone & it seems to have overwhelmed Greece in the process.....It comes down to either careless or incompetent politicians...imo.

Ok so now we are blaming the politicians again.........THAT I understand.......but putting the blame on the Greek people??? I just can't see HOW and WHY!!!!!!!

[Ajax]

OK......so lets take this to the next level..........lets entertain this idea as FACT.......... lets say:

.........the Government and the EU actually had NO INFLUENCE on the economy and public debt.........nil....zilch...nada....

And the Greek people are solely to blame......

E.u & government do have influence of a countries economy in the euro zone & how it affects the people as a result. Governments policies & law changes most certainly do affect how people go about their daily lives. Who makes the tax laws ????

Imo they are both to blame, governments lacked of proper policies change needed & people took advantage of a system that was easy to rort.

what EXACTLY did the Greeks do as individuals in 1981 that lead to such a rise in public debt.........?????????? and the next question.......is WHY???????????

Because Greece was faced with new rules & it wasn't prepared it seems, as i stated they weren't ready when they entered the euro zone.

Look at a country like a business to make more sense of it. When in business your supposed to make changes when a company steers a different direction to survive, well Greece didn't right away & is now paying the price.

[Ajax]

Like i said, no one made the changes right away that were needed when Greece entered the euro zone & it seems to have overwhelmed Greece in the process.....It comes down to either careless or incompetent politicians...imo.

Ok so now we are blaming the politicians again.........THAT I understand.......but putting the blame on the Greek people??? I just can't see HOW and WHY!!!!!!!

Imo they are both to blame, governments lacked of proper policies change needed & people took advantage of a system that was easy to rort.

[Greek for Life]

Graft Corruption and tax avoidance applies to everyone everywhere anytime

Not just Greeks and it's timeless
Only the magnitude of greed varies

[Μπουμπουλίνα]

OK......so lets take this to the next level..........lets entertain this idea as FACT.......... lets say:

.........the Government and the EU actually had NO INFLUENCE on the economy and public debt.........nil....zilch...nada....

And the Greek people are solely to blame......

E.u & government do have influence of a countries economy in the euro zone & how it affects the people as a result. Governments policies & law changes most certainly do affect how people go about their daily lives. Who makes the tax laws ????

Imo they are both to blame, governments lacked of proper policies change needed & people took advantage of a system that was easy to rort.

what EXACTLY did the Greeks do as individuals in 1981 that lead to such a rise in public debt.........?????????? and the next question.......is WHY???????????

Because Greece was faced with new rules & it wasn't prepared it seems, as i stated they weren't ready when they entered the euro zone.

Look at a country like a business to make more sense of it. When in business your supposed to make changes when a company steers a different direction to survive, well Greece didn't right away & is now paying the price.

So shouldn't we be blaming the corruption within the governments, their advisors, and the EU for not properly policing its members............why did it take 28 years (from 1981 - 2009) for the EU to realise Greece was in so much debt......

I agree with: "people took advantage of a system that was easy to rort".........what was it about the Papandreou government SPECIFICALLY that benefited the Greek people but caused such a sudden increase in the public debt.........????

[set2love]

To eradicate Corruption, we have to eradicate Greed

[eyoismos]

lets get one thing stright here people.

and all of us try as seperate and demarcate the political aspect and the economical aspect of the recent history of greece

and the key question and topic here is the economic one

there is no doubt in most logical thinkers, that pasok, or rather should i say papandreou sr made tremendous inroads politically for and on behalf of greece. for example, and this will always stay forever in my mind, when karamanlis said "greece blongs to the west" to which Pap answered "greece belongs to the greeks" . the fact is POLITICALLY, and overall did great things for greece internally - one should read up about him -

the "debate" is not about politics however, but about economics

and the fact is... the astronomic rise of public debt started with him, and his successors carried on...(because they didnt have any ideas of their own or whatever other reason)

yes...initially he made some loans, that SEEMINGLY was for the betterment of greece and greeks......but that is exactly where it stops.

fact is.... it was like having a bank having open door policies and every tom dick and harry could help themselves, INCLUDING all the thieves and fraudsters...... and the greek populace LOVED it, and just kept on voting them in....until somebody got busted

it was , and maybe the analogy might not be appropriate, ....in ancient sparta the spartans were actively encouraged to steal and cheat....but .... low and behold if they got caught

well....right now, the fact is ..... greece has been caught...and the people are crying and wailing...... but up to now... it was all yahoo! and lets get some more money while it is being dished out, lets get permanent positions in the public sector so we can carry on eating the fat, let us carry on .....

and now that the fat has finished to the last drop....... they are bitching and demanding, and blaming ...as usual...everybody else BUT themselves

THIS is what happens when money is pored in, and there are no controls....for the sake of politics and keeping oneself in power ..... BY ALL POLITICAL PARTIES

[Μπουμπουλίνα]

fact is.... it was like having a bank having open door policies and every tom dick and harry could help themselves, INCLUDING all the thieves and fraudsters...... and the greek populace LOVED it, and just kept on voting them in....until somebody got busted

it was , and maybe the analogy might not be appropriate, ....in ancient sparta the spartans were actively encouraged to steal and cheat....but .... low and behold if they got caught

well....right now, the fact is ..... greece has been caught...and the people are crying and wailing...... but up to now... it was all yahoo! and lets get some more money while it is being dished out, lets get permanent positions in the public sector so we can carry on eating the fat, let us carry on .....

and now that the fat has finished to the last drop....... they are bitching and demanding, and blaming ...as usual...everybody else BUT themselves

THIS is what happens when money is pored in, and there are no controls....for the sake of politics and keeping oneself in power ..... BY ALL POLITICAL PARTIES

1- Can you please provide evidence (ie policies) which permitted papandreou to "dish out" billions of $$$ to the Greek people.

2- Why were they "suddenly" caught in 2009.........did the EU not monitor its members??

[Ajax]

To doctor.

Absolute government corruption & carelessness on their part which the people took advantage of old & out dated systems in place, people will always exploit when they can, its human nature & yes europe failed Greece as well. But we need to learn from these mistakes, prosecuting them is gonna be very difficult...I'm all for removing the corruption & i hope the Greek people have the balls to kick them all out.

As for papandrou. Im not in any political parties over there at all, but its interesting isn't it that when he came to power there is a HUGE sudden spike....But i could be just purely speculating without knowing the real facts, but i do know there is corruption at all levels governments because we the people have given the the right & its time for us to fckn wake up.