48 replies to this topic

[Count Belisarius]

ΜΑΝΙΑΤΗΣ, on 12 August 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 04 August 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

If we must discuss eugenics here we need to ask the question, how much of our Hellenism was lost to the Ottoman conquerors? And how much diluted or displaced by their lackeys: such as the Genoese, Venetians, Franks, and Catalans?

These European occupiers were Christian and would have certainly taken many a Greek wife. And the Ottomans persuaded, under pain of death, the Byzantine aristocracy to convert to Islam en masse during the 14th to 16th Centuries. The bloodline of the upper nobility was therefore lost from the Hellenic pool. Tragedy? Maybe.

If truth though, be told, from the 4th centry AD (at the latest!) 'til the European Age of Enlightenment (middle to latter 18th-early 19th Centuries), the Greek speaking peoples of South Italy and surrounds, Egypt, Crete, the Morea, Greece proper, Asia Minor and the Levant all regarded themselves as Romans! That's correct, ROMANS. To be labelled at this time an Hellene, was an insult and a curse! For a Hellene was an infidel, a pagan heretic, and outside the boundaries of civilized Christian life. In fact, even the 19th Century saw Hellenism only among the educated Diaspora of Western Europe, the US and Russia. Not in the Greek speaking lands.

Therefore, to investigate our loss of Greek purity or otherwise using historico-geographical arguments is invalid. It is fallacious logic. For during the period in question, there were no Hellenes within the civilized sphere of society. Yes: NO HELLENES!!! This question can only be considered and answered in the forum of genetic inquiry: i.e. DNA analysis and comparisons.

That's not entirely true. The bloodline of the upper nobility may have been lost but many Byzantine dynasties were of Thraco-Illyrian, Armenian and other origins anyway. That doesn't mean the people they ruled over weren't Greek. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that Hellene was revived as an ethnonym as early as the ninth century, by which time the "threat" of paganism had subsided. The claim that Hellenism survived only outside the Greek-speaking lands is simply false; the Byzantines maintained a strong tradition of Hellenic studies. As an example, the University of Constantinople "maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century".

Nice work!!! But I mean the Hellenism, or more correctly the "Philhellenism" of the Enlightenment. Where reason and science ruled supreme, with virtually no superstitious hocus-pocus present .The "Hellenic" education of the Byzantines was always preparatory and subordiante to politics and theology:

"All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems."
(http://www.britannic...c-civilizations)

They lacked the originality and spark of ancient pre-christian Hellenes, and post Renaissance Western Europeans.

[TheGreekMan]

Here's some awesome quotes.. take note especially of Sir Arthur C. Clarke's statements

Moses of Chorene (Armenian historian - 4th & 5th centuries AD):
'... Greece is the mother of science and the source of knowledge...'

Ludwig I (King of Bavaria):
'.. I would prefer to be a Greek rather than an heir apparent of a throne...'

Sir Arthur C. Clarke (English Author and Inventor):
'... if the sharp-sightedness of the Greeks had kept pace with their intelligence, then maybe the Industrial Revolution had begun one thousand years before Colombus.. and so, in our era, we would not just try to visit the Moon, but we would already have arrived on other close planets...'

Thoma Moore (Irish Poet):
'... to Greece we give our shining blades..'

Albert Einstein (Jewish-Americal Scientist):
'...how can any educated person stay away from the Greeks? I have always been far more interested in them than in science...'

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (German philosopher):
'..of all peoples... the Greeks have dreamt the dream of life best...'

Memhmed II (Ottoman Sultan, 28th May 1453):
'... what a city we have given over to plunder and destruction..'

Leo Tolstoy (Russian Writer):
'...without Greek studies there is no education...'

Friedricht Nietzche (German Philosopher):
'.. i have never come across someone who could inspire more respect than the Greek philosophers'...

George Bernard Shaw (Irish-British Playwright):
'... if in the library of your house you do not have the works of the ancient Greek writers, then you live in a house with no light...'

Francois Rabelais (French Renaissance Writer):
'...it's a shame to be called 'educated' those who do not study the ancient Greek writers...'

Victor Hugo (French writer):
'... the world is the expanding Greece and Greece is the shrinking world'...

Henry Miller (USA Writer)
'For those who think that Greece is today of no importance, allow me to say that they could not have been more wrong. Modern just like ancient Greece has unique importance for everyone who is trying to find himself....'

Willim Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister of Canada)
'When the birthplace of the finest civilisation the world ever experienced, the country to which we ought what makes life superior and more beautiful, faces such as attack, the place of all real people is by her side..'

Arthur C. Clarke
"If Christianity and Turkish occupation hadn't stopped the Greek civilization from its advanced progress in mathematics , chemistry and physics the Greeks could have been to space 600 years before the Americans.."

George Santayana:
�In Greece wise men speak and fools decide"

Friedrich Nietzsche: (Need I really say?)
It is a curious thing that God learned Greek when he wished to turn author - and that he did not learn it better.

Lucretius (Roman philosopher)
"Some greek fellow was always first"

Helen Keller (American writer)
"If it is true that the violin is the most perfect of musical instruments, then Greek is the violin of human thought"

[ΜΑΝΙΑΤΗΣ]

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

ΜΑΝΙΑΤΗΣ, on 12 August 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 04 August 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

If we must discuss eugenics here we need to ask the question, how much of our Hellenism was lost to the Ottoman conquerors? And how much diluted or displaced by their lackeys: such as the Genoese, Venetians, Franks, and Catalans?

These European occupiers were Christian and would have certainly taken many a Greek wife. And the Ottomans persuaded, under pain of death, the Byzantine aristocracy to convert to Islam en masse during the 14th to 16th Centuries. The bloodline of the upper nobility was therefore lost from the Hellenic pool. Tragedy? Maybe.

If truth though, be told, from the 4th centry AD (at the latest!) 'til the European Age of Enlightenment (middle to latter 18th-early 19th Centuries), the Greek speaking peoples of South Italy and surrounds, Egypt, Crete, the Morea, Greece proper, Asia Minor and the Levant all regarded themselves as Romans! That's correct, ROMANS. To be labelled at this time an Hellene, was an insult and a curse! For a Hellene was an infidel, a pagan heretic, and outside the boundaries of civilized Christian life. In fact, even the 19th Century saw Hellenism only among the educated Diaspora of Western Europe, the US and Russia. Not in the Greek speaking lands.

Therefore, to investigate our loss of Greek purity or otherwise using historico-geographical arguments is invalid. It is fallacious logic. For during the period in question, there were no Hellenes within the civilized sphere of society. Yes: NO HELLENES!!! This question can only be considered and answered in the forum of genetic inquiry: i.e. DNA analysis and comparisons.

That's not entirely true. The bloodline of the upper nobility may have been lost but many Byzantine dynasties were of Thraco-Illyrian, Armenian and other origins anyway. That doesn't mean the people they ruled over weren't Greek. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that Hellene was revived as an ethnonym as early as the ninth century, by which time the "threat" of paganism had subsided. The claim that Hellenism survived only outside the Greek-speaking lands is simply false; the Byzantines maintained a strong tradition of Hellenic studies. As an example, the University of Constantinople "maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century".

Nice work!!! But I mean the Hellenism, or more correctly the "Philhellenism" of the Enlightenment. Where reason and science ruled supreme, with virtually no superstitious hocus-pocus present .The "Hellenic" education of the Byzantines was always preparatory and subordiante to politics and theology:

"All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems."
(http://www.britannic...c-civilizations)

They lacked the originality and spark of ancient pre-christian Hellenes, and post Renaissance Western Europeans.

I see your point, but it isn't a relevant argument in the context of the debate over whether or not the Byzantines were or saw themselves as Greeks. I lack the agricultural acumen of my grandfather, but it doesn't mean I'm not descended from him.

[TheGreekMan]

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 04 August 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

If we must discuss eugenics here we need to ask the question, how much of our Hellenism was lost to the Ottoman conquerors? And how much diluted or displaced by their lackeys: such as the Genoese, Venetians, Franks, and Catalans?

These European occupiers were Christian and would have certainly taken many a Greek wife. And the Ottomans persuaded, under pain of death, the Byzantine aristocracy to convert to Islam en masse during the 14th to 16th Centuries. The bloodline of the upper nobility was therefore lost from the Hellenic pool. Tragedy? Maybe.

If truth though, be told, from the 4th centry AD (at the latest!) 'til the European Age of Enlightenment (middle to latter 18th-early 19th Centuries), the Greek speaking peoples of South Italy and surrounds, Egypt, Crete, the Morea, Greece proper, Asia Minor and the Levant all regarded themselves as Romans! That's correct, ROMANS. To be labelled at this time an Hellene, was an insult and a curse! For a Hellene was an infidel, a pagan heretic, and outside the boundaries of civilized Christian life. In fact, even the 19th Century saw Hellenism only among the educated Diaspora of Western Europe, the US and Russia. Not in the Greek speaking lands.

Therefore, to investigate our loss of Greek purity or otherwise using historico-geographical arguments is invalid. It is fallacious logic. For during the period in question, there were no Hellenes within the civilized sphere of society. Yes: NO HELLENES!!! This question can only be considered and answered in the forum of genetic inquiry: i.e. DNA analysis and comparisons.

That's not entirely true. The bloodline of the upper nobility may have been lost but many Byzantine dynasties were of Thraco-Illyrian, Armenian and other origins anyway. That doesn't mean the people they ruled over weren't Greek. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that Hellene was revived as an ethnonym as early as the ninth century, by which time the "threat" of paganism had subsided. The claim that Hellenism survived only outside the Greek-speaking lands is simply false; the Byzantines maintained a strong tradition of Hellenic studies. As an example, the University of Constantinople "maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century".

Nice work!!! But I mean the Hellenism, or more correctly the "Philhellenism" of the Enlightenment. Where reason and science ruled supreme, with virtually no superstitious hocus-pocus present .The "Hellenic" education of the Byzantines was always preparatory and subordiante to politics and theology:

"All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems."
(http://www.britannic...c-civilizations)

They lacked the originality and spark of ancient pre-christian Hellenes, and post Renaissance Western Europeans.

I see your point, but it isn't a relevant argument in the context of the debate over whether or not the Byzantines were or saw themselves as Greeks. I lack the agricultural acumen of my grandfather, but it doesn't mean I'm not descended from him.

I agree Mani.

The Byzantines called themselves "Romaoi" but they were not latin speaking, in fact most detested the latins for most of their latter history and were definately of a Greek/Hellenic National Conscience.

"Perhaps the most important legacy of Heraclius was changing the official language of the East Roman Empire from Latin to Greek in 620"
"He is also remembered for abandoning the use of Latin in official documents, further Hellenising the Empire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

Hellenization can also refer to the Byzantine Empire and Constantine's founding of Constantinople. Moreover, it can refer to the primacy of Greek culture and the Greek language after the reign of Emperor Heraclius in the 7th century.

[ΜΑΝΙΑΤΗΣ]

TheGreekMan, on 12 August 2009 - 06:36 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 04 August 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

If we must discuss eugenics here we need to ask the question, how much of our Hellenism was lost to the Ottoman conquerors? And how much diluted or displaced by their lackeys: such as the Genoese, Venetians, Franks, and Catalans?

These European occupiers were Christian and would have certainly taken many a Greek wife. And the Ottomans persuaded, under pain of death, the Byzantine aristocracy to convert to Islam en masse during the 14th to 16th Centuries. The bloodline of the upper nobility was therefore lost from the Hellenic pool. Tragedy? Maybe.

If truth though, be told, from the 4th centry AD (at the latest!) 'til the European Age of Enlightenment (middle to latter 18th-early 19th Centuries), the Greek speaking peoples of South Italy and surrounds, Egypt, Crete, the Morea, Greece proper, Asia Minor and the Levant all regarded themselves as Romans! That's correct, ROMANS. To be labelled at this time an Hellene, was an insult and a curse! For a Hellene was an infidel, a pagan heretic, and outside the boundaries of civilized Christian life. In fact, even the 19th Century saw Hellenism only among the educated Diaspora of Western Europe, the US and Russia. Not in the Greek speaking lands.

Therefore, to investigate our loss of Greek purity or otherwise using historico-geographical arguments is invalid. It is fallacious logic. For during the period in question, there were no Hellenes within the civilized sphere of society. Yes: NO HELLENES!!! This question can only be considered and answered in the forum of genetic inquiry: i.e. DNA analysis and comparisons.

That's not entirely true. The bloodline of the upper nobility may have been lost but many Byzantine dynasties were of Thraco-Illyrian, Armenian and other origins anyway. That doesn't mean the people they ruled over weren't Greek. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that Hellene was revived as an ethnonym as early as the ninth century, by which time the "threat" of paganism had subsided. The claim that Hellenism survived only outside the Greek-speaking lands is simply false; the Byzantines maintained a strong tradition of Hellenic studies. As an example, the University of Constantinople "maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century".

Nice work!!! But I mean the Hellenism, or more correctly the "Philhellenism" of the Enlightenment. Where reason and science ruled supreme, with virtually no superstitious hocus-pocus present .The "Hellenic" education of the Byzantines was always preparatory and subordiante to politics and theology:

"All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems."
(http://www.britannic...c-civilizations)

They lacked the originality and spark of ancient pre-christian Hellenes, and post Renaissance Western Europeans.

I see your point, but it isn't a relevant argument in the context of the debate over whether or not the Byzantines were or saw themselves as Greeks. I lack the agricultural acumen of my grandfather, but it doesn't mean I'm not descended from him.

I agree Mani.

The Byzantines called themselves "Romaoi" but they were not latin speaking, in fact most detested the latins for most of their latter history and were definately of a Greek/Hellenic National Conscience.

"Perhaps the most important legacy of Heraclius was changing the official language of the East Roman Empire from Latin to Greek in 620"
"He is also remembered for abandoning the use of Latin in official documents, further Hellenising the Empire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

Hellenization can also refer to the Byzantine Empire and Constantine's founding of Constantinople. Moreover, it can refer to the primacy of Greek culture and the Greek language after the reign of Emperor Heraclius in the 7th century.

And it took an Armenian, Heraclius, to replace Latin with Greek.

[TheGreekMan]

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:40 PM, said:

TheGreekMan, on 12 August 2009 - 06:36 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 04 August 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

If we must discuss eugenics here we need to ask the question, how much of our Hellenism was lost to the Ottoman conquerors? And how much diluted or displaced by their lackeys: such as the Genoese, Venetians, Franks, and Catalans?

These European occupiers were Christian and would have certainly taken many a Greek wife. And the Ottomans persuaded, under pain of death, the Byzantine aristocracy to convert to Islam en masse during the 14th to 16th Centuries. The bloodline of the upper nobility was therefore lost from the Hellenic pool. Tragedy? Maybe.

If truth though, be told, from the 4th centry AD (at the latest!) 'til the European Age of Enlightenment (middle to latter 18th-early 19th Centuries), the Greek speaking peoples of South Italy and surrounds, Egypt, Crete, the Morea, Greece proper, Asia Minor and the Levant all regarded themselves as Romans! That's correct, ROMANS. To be labelled at this time an Hellene, was an insult and a curse! For a Hellene was an infidel, a pagan heretic, and outside the boundaries of civilized Christian life. In fact, even the 19th Century saw Hellenism only among the educated Diaspora of Western Europe, the US and Russia. Not in the Greek speaking lands.

Therefore, to investigate our loss of Greek purity or otherwise using historico-geographical arguments is invalid. It is fallacious logic. For during the period in question, there were no Hellenes within the civilized sphere of society. Yes: NO HELLENES!!! This question can only be considered and answered in the forum of genetic inquiry: i.e. DNA analysis and comparisons.

That's not entirely true. The bloodline of the upper nobility may have been lost but many Byzantine dynasties were of Thraco-Illyrian, Armenian and other origins anyway. That doesn't mean the people they ruled over weren't Greek. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that Hellene was revived as an ethnonym as early as the ninth century, by which time the "threat" of paganism had subsided. The claim that Hellenism survived only outside the Greek-speaking lands is simply false; the Byzantines maintained a strong tradition of Hellenic studies. As an example, the University of Constantinople "maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century".

Nice work!!! But I mean the Hellenism, or more correctly the "Philhellenism" of the Enlightenment. Where reason and science ruled supreme, with virtually no superstitious hocus-pocus present .The "Hellenic" education of the Byzantines was always preparatory and subordiante to politics and theology:

"All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems."
(http://www.britannic...c-civilizations)

They lacked the originality and spark of ancient pre-christian Hellenes, and post Renaissance Western Europeans.

I see your point, but it isn't a relevant argument in the context of the debate over whether or not the Byzantines were or saw themselves as Greeks. I lack the agricultural acumen of my grandfather, but it doesn't mean I'm not descended from him.

I agree Mani.

The Byzantines called themselves "Romaoi" but they were not latin speaking, in fact most detested the latins for most of their latter history and were definately of a Greek/Hellenic National Conscience.

"Perhaps the most important legacy of Heraclius was changing the official language of the East Roman Empire from Latin to Greek in 620"
"He is also remembered for abandoning the use of Latin in official documents, further Hellenising the Empire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

Hellenization can also refer to the Byzantine Empire and Constantine's founding of Constantinople. Moreover, it can refer to the primacy of Greek culture and the Greek language after the reign of Emperor Heraclius in the 7th century.

And it took an Armenian, Heraclius, to replace Latin with Greek.

Sure had an interesting family history... his mother was Epiphania.. I wish I was a Byzantine Emperor! I guess I kinda am but my dominion is quite... err.. reduced.

[Count Belisarius]

TheGreekMan, on 12 August 2009 - 06:43 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:40 PM, said:

TheGreekMan, on 12 August 2009 - 06:36 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 04 August 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

If we must discuss eugenics here we need to ask the question, how much of our Hellenism was lost to the Ottoman conquerors? And how much diluted or displaced by their lackeys: such as the Genoese, Venetians, Franks, and Catalans?

These European occupiers were Christian and would have certainly taken many a Greek wife. And the Ottomans persuaded, under pain of death, the Byzantine aristocracy to convert to Islam en masse during the 14th to 16th Centuries. The bloodline of the upper nobility was therefore lost from the Hellenic pool. Tragedy? Maybe.

If truth though, be told, from the 4th centry AD (at the latest!) 'til the European Age of Enlightenment (middle to latter 18th-early 19th Centuries), the Greek speaking peoples of South Italy and surrounds, Egypt, Crete, the Morea, Greece proper, Asia Minor and the Levant all regarded themselves as Romans! That's correct, ROMANS. To be labelled at this time an Hellene, was an insult and a curse! For a Hellene was an infidel, a pagan heretic, and outside the boundaries of civilized Christian life. In fact, even the 19th Century saw Hellenism only among the educated Diaspora of Western Europe, the US and Russia. Not in the Greek speaking lands.

Therefore, to investigate our loss of Greek purity or otherwise using historico-geographical arguments is invalid. It is fallacious logic. For during the period in question, there were no Hellenes within the civilized sphere of society. Yes: NO HELLENES!!! This question can only be considered and answered in the forum of genetic inquiry: i.e. DNA analysis and comparisons.

That's not entirely true. The bloodline of the upper nobility may have been lost but many Byzantine dynasties were of Thraco-Illyrian, Armenian and other origins anyway. That doesn't mean the people they ruled over weren't Greek. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that Hellene was revived as an ethnonym as early as the ninth century, by which time the "threat" of paganism had subsided. The claim that Hellenism survived only outside the Greek-speaking lands is simply false; the Byzantines maintained a strong tradition of Hellenic studies. As an example, the University of Constantinople "maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century".

Nice work!!! But I mean the Hellenism, or more correctly the "Philhellenism" of the Enlightenment. Where reason and science ruled supreme, with virtually no superstitious hocus-pocus present .The "Hellenic" education of the Byzantines was always preparatory and subordiante to politics and theology:

"All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems."
(http://www.britannic...c-civilizations)

They lacked the originality and spark of ancient pre-christian Hellenes, and post Renaissance Western Europeans.

I see your point, but it isn't a relevant argument in the context of the debate over whether or not the Byzantines were or saw themselves as Greeks. I lack the agricultural acumen of my grandfather, but it doesn't mean I'm not descended from him.

I agree Mani.

The Byzantines called themselves "Romaoi" but they were not latin speaking, in fact most detested the latins for most of their latter history and were definately of a Greek/Hellenic National Conscience.

"Perhaps the most important legacy of Heraclius was changing the official language of the East Roman Empire from Latin to Greek in 620"
"He is also remembered for abandoning the use of Latin in official documents, further Hellenising the Empire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

Hellenization can also refer to the Byzantine Empire and Constantine's founding of Constantinople. Moreover, it can refer to the primacy of Greek culture and the Greek language after the reign of Emperor Heraclius in the 7th century.

And it took an Armenian, Heraclius, to replace Latin with Greek.

Sure had an interesting family history... his mother was Epiphania.. I wish I was a Byzantine Emperor! I guess I kinda am but my dominion is quite... err.. reduced.

So, cultural, anthropological and historical relativity and analysis? Or dependance on DNA sequencing and the human genome, together with anthropoarchaeology? From which font doth the knowledgde of Greekness flow..?

[ΜΑΝΙΑΤΗΣ]

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 07:35 PM, said:

TheGreekMan, on 12 August 2009 - 06:43 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:40 PM, said:

TheGreekMan, on 12 August 2009 - 06:36 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

Μ�, on 12 August 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

Count Belisarius, on 04 August 2009 - 02:56 PM, said:

If we must discuss eugenics here we need to ask the question, how much of our Hellenism was lost to the Ottoman conquerors? And how much diluted or displaced by their lackeys: such as the Genoese, Venetians, Franks, and Catalans?

These European occupiers were Christian and would have certainly taken many a Greek wife. And the Ottomans persuaded, under pain of death, the Byzantine aristocracy to convert to Islam en masse during the 14th to 16th Centuries. The bloodline of the upper nobility was therefore lost from the Hellenic pool. Tragedy? Maybe.

If truth though, be told, from the 4th centry AD (at the latest!) 'til the European Age of Enlightenment (middle to latter 18th-early 19th Centuries), the Greek speaking peoples of South Italy and surrounds, Egypt, Crete, the Morea, Greece proper, Asia Minor and the Levant all regarded themselves as Romans! That's correct, ROMANS. To be labelled at this time an Hellene, was an insult and a curse! For a Hellene was an infidel, a pagan heretic, and outside the boundaries of civilized Christian life. In fact, even the 19th Century saw Hellenism only among the educated Diaspora of Western Europe, the US and Russia. Not in the Greek speaking lands.

Therefore, to investigate our loss of Greek purity or otherwise using historico-geographical arguments is invalid. It is fallacious logic. For during the period in question, there were no Hellenes within the civilized sphere of society. Yes: NO HELLENES!!! This question can only be considered and answered in the forum of genetic inquiry: i.e. DNA analysis and comparisons.

That's not entirely true. The bloodline of the upper nobility may have been lost but many Byzantine dynasties were of Thraco-Illyrian, Armenian and other origins anyway. That doesn't mean the people they ruled over weren't Greek. Furthermore, there is evidence suggesting that Hellene was revived as an ethnonym as early as the ninth century, by which time the "threat" of paganism had subsided. The claim that Hellenism survived only outside the Greek-speaking lands is simply false; the Byzantines maintained a strong tradition of Hellenic studies. As an example, the University of Constantinople "maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century".

Nice work!!! But I mean the Hellenism, or more correctly the "Philhellenism" of the Enlightenment. Where reason and science ruled supreme, with virtually no superstitious hocus-pocus present .The "Hellenic" education of the Byzantines was always preparatory and subordiante to politics and theology:

"All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems."
(http://www.britannic...c-civilizations)

They lacked the originality and spark of ancient pre-christian Hellenes, and post Renaissance Western Europeans.

I see your point, but it isn't a relevant argument in the context of the debate over whether or not the Byzantines were or saw themselves as Greeks. I lack the agricultural acumen of my grandfather, but it doesn't mean I'm not descended from him.

I agree Mani.

The Byzantines called themselves "Romaoi" but they were not latin speaking, in fact most detested the latins for most of their latter history and were definately of a Greek/Hellenic National Conscience.

"Perhaps the most important legacy of Heraclius was changing the official language of the East Roman Empire from Latin to Greek in 620"
"He is also remembered for abandoning the use of Latin in official documents, further Hellenising the Empire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

Hellenization can also refer to the Byzantine Empire and Constantine's founding of Constantinople. Moreover, it can refer to the primacy of Greek culture and the Greek language after the reign of Emperor Heraclius in the 7th century.

And it took an Armenian, Heraclius, to replace Latin with Greek.

Sure had an interesting family history... his mother was Epiphania.. I wish I was a Byzantine Emperor! I guess I kinda am but my dominion is quite... err.. reduced.

So, cultural, anthropological and historical relativity and analysis? Or dependance on DNA sequencing and the human genome, together with anthropoarchaeology? From which font doth the knowledgde of Greekness flow..?

τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ...

[RIP]

Count Belisarius, on 12 August 2009 - 07:35 PM, said:

So, cultural, anthropological and historical relativity and analysis? Or dependance on DNA sequencing and the human genome, together with anthropoarchaeology? From which font doth the knowledgde of Greekness flow..?

That sounded like poetry!